No, YOU Shut Up! - Universal Good

For those of you just tuning in, check out the introduction to this conversation that I'm having with Justin McRoberts. He submitted his first question, and here is my response. I'm going to break it up a little because I don't accept the assertion that's inherent in his question.

You’ve stated that religious faith is bad for people.

Yes, although even I'm uncomfortable with such a blanket statement, as it allows little room for nuance. For some it's as bad as a mosquito bite. For others, it's as bad as an atomic bomb.

This implies some kind of good; a universal good, at that.

No it doesn't.

Whew. Well, that was easy. I guess it's my turn to ask a question now...

Nah, okay, let me elaborate. All it implies is that I have an opinion as to what's good and what's not. This is something that I have in common with the vast majority of people in the world. The big difference with me and people of faith is that I don't justify what I think is good by stating that my opinion is based on the directions left to me by an omniscient, omnipotent, invisible mystical creature. So yes, it implies a good, but the "universal" part is a bit of a leap.

Can you describe the “good” religious faith is an obstacle to?

First, I have to define "good", I suppose. "Good" is what's beneficial to us as a species. We're a cooperative species, so whatever is helpful for the greatest number of people is what's good. We don't need an invisible being to tell us that killing, lying, and stealing is bad. In fact, I think it's kind of sad and cynical to think that we do.

Faith might motivate people to do good, but I would assert that there are motivations based solely on reason that could still provide that motivation. For instance, I once helped a blind lady get to where she was going. I could have ignored her when she asked for help and nobody would have known about what a jerk-move I just pulled. Why did I help her though? Because I want to live in a world where we help one another, as one day I might need help. The only way I can have any direct control over that is by doing what I would want others to do if the situation were reversed. Nobody and no deity needs to tell me that. I can figure it out for myself.

While faith is not needed to do good, it is too easily used to justify bad. Do I really need to lay out the examples of where this has happened? You have everything from the Crusades to Japanese Kamikaze pilots to September 11th. Can you have evil deeds without faith? Absolutely. But the problem with faith is that it actively encourages followers to not question. It encourages them to accept things based solely on authority, and it's the authority of those who claim to speak for the divine.

In other words, faith gives people reason for doing bad things. Nonbelievers are stuck with their own rationales for the bad things they do. And let's face it, saying "You should do this because the ultimate force in the universe said you should!" is much more compelling than "You should do this because I personally think it's a good idea." Even atheistic regimes like Stalinist Russia and North Korea had to borrow the trappings of religious thought in order to turn their leaders into divine authority figures.

Also, faith is the enemy of reason. "Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding." Guess who said that? No, not Richard Dawkins. Martin Luther, that's who. Reason is what provides us everything that enabled us to survive, from our ability to hunt and gather to agriculture to fire to vaccines. Reason will get us out of the messes that we're in today - from global warming to figuring out how to get food to starving people.

Faith made it a controversy when somebody dared to say that the Earth went around the sun. Faith sets us behind the rest of the civilized world when people can't accept the basic biological principle that we evolved from other species the same as any other animal. Faith makes people stop asking questions. Instead of trying to figure out the complexities of our universe, too many of the faithful are happy simply believing that "God did it."

Is it a universal good; can it be applied to all people?

No, I do not think that there is a "universal good". There are some things that are almost universally considered good. You'd be hard-pressed to find a society nowadays that condones killing, theft, and lying. However, even with those there are exceptions to which most reasonable people would agree. (It's okay to kill somebody who's trying to kill you; it's okay to steal food that would get thrown away in order to feed yourself; it's okay to lie to an abusive husband about the whereabouts of his wife.) Every situation must be considered, and we're not always going to get agreement. All I can give you is my view on what's good for each situation. This is based on what my parents taught me, the society in which I live, and what I have reasoned out for myself.

And here's the thing - I'm going to assert that this is true for you and every person of faith that exists. It's not like Christians have been following the same moral code consistently since the death of Jesus. They once didn't have a problem with slavery. Now they can find all sorts of reasons why their faith supposedly condemns it. What changed? After 1800 years, did they find that elusive Bible passage where God clearly laid it all out that slavery is, and always has been, wrong? No, they changed with the times.

I've had Christians ask me this question, or variations on it before. Usually it leads to something along the lines of: "You can't explain where good comes from; therefore, Jeebus." The bottom line for me is this: until people of faith can even demonstrate that there IS a "universal good" this question is ultimately irrelevant when it comes to determining whether such a being exists or not. Because even if my answer is completely illogical, it still doesn't bring us any closer to proving that a deity exists. And even if one does, that does not automatically make him what anybody would consider to be good.

So I guess this leads ME to some questions: Do YOU think that there's a "universal good"? If so, how do you know what it is? If there is one, then why is there so much disagreement as to what's good and what isn't - even amongst people of the same religion? If it's impossible to know for sure the mind of a being who decides what's good and what isn't, then how is that different from us having to figure it out the same as if there wasn't such a being?

Here's a link to Justin's blog where you'll find his eventual response.